OPEN 2020 A new platform co-op for collaborative tools
Main Open 2020 pad at https://open.coop/2020info
OPEN 2020 is being run using open source tools, managed by a new platform co-op, meet.coop.
But how should this co-op, and the common tools it provides to its members, be stewarded and governed to best effect - so that it is in fact a commons?
Following on from the first session on Tools of collaboration https://pad.disroot.org/p/r.d4f2bb3b2ccb7e3feb8f2db7481ccb16 this second session addresses governance and stewarding in a collaborative commons.
The session will review a number of established forms of governance that might be considered for an infrastructure of distributed resources on the web. To provide background and inspiration, a panel will present ideas, success stories and challenges. The Online Meeting Coop (meet.coop) will respond to this array of issues, in the context of its own plans for development.
The panel members are . .
Session chair - So Jung Rim (Social Innovation Exchange)
- Alfredo Lopez - May First Movement Technology
- Francesca Pick - Greaterthan, Enspiral
- Petter Joelson - collective.tools, digiDemLab
- Albert Tucker - The Social Business Network, Etico (Fairtrade organisations)
Wouter Tebbens (femProComuns) will respond from meet.coop.
In breakouts, participants will be invited to share views of the kind of relationship they would expect to have with a commons of digital tools.
After the conference close, a thread in The Open Co-op Loomio will continue to assemble contributions on issues and actions. https://www.loomio.org/d/ZpMflrK6/stewarding-a-tools-infrastructure-making-a-digital-commons
Session running order
- Context - Oli Sylvester Bradley
- Framework for contributions in commons, commons stewardship - Mike Hales
- Meet.coop - A practical response to the challenges - Wouter Tebbens
- Frame for the breakouts - Mike Hales
- Plenary - Facilitator, Oli Sylvester Bradley
- Wrap up
Three modes of interaction with a commons - Enjoying, Curating, and Stewarding
Enjoying: Getting the benefits from
Curating: generating content, "Working or producing"
Stewarding: Maintaining? .... or "looking after"
4 Models of governance
Classic free-libre open-source software model (FLOSS)
* the resident model
* values peer-to-peer production
* Platforms maintain the interaction (Disroot)
* Products leave the commons (of developers) and go out to the Enjoyers. - Enjoyers are not part of the commons.
(aside: a lot of free/open software production (and use) is in fully commercial settings - paid work, against corporate objectives. Or it's done in an under-resourced way, side projects by those with the privilege of being able to volunteer their labour. THe floss labour model is contested)
Classic Consumer Coop Mode
- There is a tension between consumer coops and producer coops
- Stewarding takes place through general meetings, voting, shares
- multi stakeholder coop
Grassroots 'movement organization' model
- Stewarding doesn't appear to have particular prominence.
- Assemblies are automomous - local autonomies
Full Fledged Commons Mode
- Stewarding is at the heart of commons - if it's not stewarded, it's not a commons
- Francesca: "You can only be in [this model] in so many systems at once...that is my concern - i.e. if every service and product I used meant I had to join a different coop fully, that would not be possible"
Francesca: good systems can maintain many different types of contributors. Not everyone can be a steward, providing monetary or computing power is valuable.
What's the difference between stewarding and curating?
Good question! To me (oli) : Curating is more about content (e.g. the content of this conference!) and Stewarding is "looking after..." but I am sure others will give different answers...
I would agree with that. Curating is more of an active role, whereas I would say that as a steward you look after something by ensuring the work needed to maintain is done, but you don't necessarily do the work.
Matt Noyes1:56 PM
curating = working/producing
Mike : "If commons are not stewarded it's a free-for-all"
Conversations about maintenance and stewardship - festivalofmaintenance.org.uk
Phil Pawlet Jackson shared: an Article on governance
" colleagues have pushed back on the need for multi-stakeholder coops in favor of secondary coops, where each stakeholder group would instead be a cooperative. "
Sam: a good example of a cooperative of cooperatives is Up & Go (https://www.upandgo.coop/). it's a platform coop that offers scheduling & online-stuff for cleaning coops in nyc.
Mondragon is a great example of co-op of co-ops
Session chair - So Jung Rim (Social Innovation Exchange)
Alfredo Lopez - May First Movement Technology
- Left leaning, cooperative structured,
- We're producing an alternative to tools
- Website appears to promote
- Roundcube (email client): https://roundcube.net/
- We need to develop the relationships between technologists and movement activists. There should be be no difference between the two groups.
- "what's the relationship between the people that make the tools and the people who use the tools?" - May First work on developing this relationship...
- The great majority of our group
Francesca Pick - Greaterthan, Enspiral
- Stewardship and Creation
- One of the questions we ask ourselves, "what is good stewardship?"
- Enspiral: There are two concentric circles: Stewards? and members?
- The "Catalyst" role is funded, people who do cross-pollination between members, making videos, addressing the information overload
- "Humans" have been the best tools
- In some of the decentralized autonomous circles of which she is a part, people ask whether automated processes could do this cross polination - humans do it better.
- paying people to maintains the commons is important to prevent burnout
- Network governance 101 course: https://academy.betterworktogether.co/p/network-governance-101
- 50% discount for my course with this coupon: OpenCoop2020
Petter Joelson - collective.tools, digiDemLab
- Experiment with digital tools and forms of communication
- Hackathons to bring together social movement people with hackers
- It's difficult to make
- Oliver Sylvester-Bradley: "Petter and team have also delivered this which is a VERY cool free alternative to Zoom for anyone ... >> https://meet.collective.tools/"
- Wouter @femProcomuns.coop: "There are a few coops now offering cooperative clouds. To start meet.coop we got together webarchitects.co.uk, femProcomuns.coop (with CommonsCloud.coop) and collective.tools. If you are aware of more such coops, please let us know!"
- Cobox (by Magma Collective): https://cobox.cloud/: CoBox is a distributed, encrypted, offline-enabled data hosting cloud platform.
- Open alternatives to Trello:
- Phabricator. Wouter: we use Phabricator a somewhat complex project management platform, check it out here projectes.commonscloud.coopWikipedia community also uses Phabricator
Albert Tucker - The Social Business Network, Etico (Fairtrade organisations)
- If you're alone, your ability to get to market is limited, but in groups of 200, 500, 1000 you have more access
- Multistakeholder model - the governance challenges are legion
- Who are the best buyers to enter us into the best market? How do we make sure equal value is given to all the producers?
- What governance structures give us the ability to operate in a global market?
- Laura James2:39 PM - this is really useful experience, thanks Albert for sharing
- the bit where the money comes in is often given the most importance .... TOO TRUE
- Loaded this Meet.Coop Servers, sharing a big server. Collaboration with OpenCoop.
- 3 objectives
- Share online meeting service for the commons, social and solidarity economy
- consolidate an international network of cooperative technology actors and build ccritical mass for etical alternaives to GAMAF
- ...and a third one!
- WebArchs say the current meet.coop can do 200
- Different memberships
- Custodian members: femProcomuns, collective tools, web arcitects
- Producer members: commons cloud, remix the commons, hypha, open, autonomic, digital life collective
- consumer members: animorph, free knowledge institutie, may first technology movement
DisCOs is a P2P/Commons, cooperative and Feminist Economic alternative to Decentralised Autonomous Organizations (or DAOs)
Jonathab Bean: "Contribution accounting systems like Disco Contribution acounting Trusts CATS and contribution reward systems..."
Distributed computing: powered by BOINC: https://boinc.berkeley.edu/
Robert Best: What is the nature of the relationship between meet.coop and the team that develops BigBlueButton?
Wouter: Thread of Decentralisation:
How can we support techies ASIDE from money?
- Care work
- Reduce technical burden
- Jakub Lanc "An overarching sentiment here around devs (at least in some areas) is many of them are somewhat "spoilt" (in terms of expected rewards) by the big corp demand and market valuation"
- Compensation through asset-backed currencies (local food, fab labs, renewable energy)
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[12:47] Billy Smith : you've got to propitiate the machine gods first... :D
[12:49] Jonathan Bean : Is there a calendar I can subscribe to to get the events on my calendar?
[12:51] mike hales : I'm breaking for luch - see you in a while
[12:51] Billy Smith : An interesting conversation about global supplly chains, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dla42bY7k90 :D
[12:53] Billy Smith : It also stops the energy leaving your local ecosystems.
[12:54] Billy Smith : I am a person.
I am not an economic unit!
[12:54] Billy Smith : :D
[12:56] Renata Ballesteros : Still detoxing, my bad
[12:59] Darrell Duane : I start to wonder if there's a "Stockholm Syndrome" going on with the "abuse" from Visa and Mastercard
[13:01] Leon : haha, good point
[13:03] Darrell Duane : Do you think UBI is the way to do that ?
[13:03] Darrell Duane : at least for Housing and Food ?
[13:03] Jonathan Bean : Grace is right, what about resource based economy?
[13:04] Simon Grant : I want to get away from divisive discussion
[13:04] Simon Grant : "The right thing" and "the wrong thing"
[13:05] Grace : Disagreement is not divisive.
[13:05] Simon Grant : I agree!
[13:06] Simon Grant : Grace, I would appreciate some deep and respectful dialogue with you
[13:07] Grace : I'm easy to find!
[13:09] Renata Ballesteros : Here it is again :) https://email@example.com/a-solution-to-everything-41809aefa2e8
[13:09] Leon : ok, but credit has existed for a while https://www.core77.com/posts/67600/A-Medieval-British-Anti-Counterfeiting-System-Split-Tally-Sticks
[13:09] Jonathan Bean : How to Not go Back to Normal - Ballesteros, R - Medium (https://firstname.lastname@example.org/a-solution-to-everything-41809aefa2e8)
[13:10] Renata Ballesteros : Aw, thank you, Jonathan!
[13:11] Jonathan Bean : Your welcome I keep all the links in the tabs outliner chrome extension.
[13:11] Darrell Duane : Trustlines!
[13:20] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : all the chat from the Mutual Credit deep dive session is now in the notes: https://pad.disroot.org/p/Mutual_Credit_deep_dive
[13:24] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Please all have a look - and add your Offers / Wants / Commitments and requests to this Pad - ready for the "matching" session in the sum up later today :) >>> https://pad.disroot.org/p/open2020-offers-wants
[13:25] Jonathan Bean : Conference is a good idea for practicing these things, maybe call it like a temporary intentional community or society or temporary startup society.
[13:25] Renata Ballesteros : How do we join, Grace? :)
[13:27] Jonathan Bean : I would love to learn more too Grace. It is a great opportunity for practicing distributed governance. I have helped organize a creative arts retreat in Maryland last year called beauty in the backyard by Metta Creative, they may like to participate too.
[13:28] John Waters : We can't let the system fall apart until we have a plan to save the parts we actually need.
[13:31] Renata Ballesteros : But what It is already falling?
[13:31] John Waters : @Renata That's the conditioned hierarchy that keep us enslaved. Wage slaves. It's much easier to enslave populations who've been conditioned to believe they're free.
[13:31] Renata Ballesteros : Totally!
[13:34] Albert Tucker : and to connect our various actions and learning
[13:35] Albert Tucker : being vulnerable and ability to feed your kids is also anxiety raising
[13:36] Simon Grant : Most people (including me) need close social support to make the decisions that we really know are right in wider picture
[13:36] Albert Tucker : I have to take a break before next session too
[13:37] Martin Dow : @Grace @Renata - addicted to lunch! maybe that's okay..
[13:37] Simon Grant : Safe enough, secure enough;.. that's where immediate support really counts
[13:37] Simon Grant : I think we don't often think about that because we are conditioned into an individualist mindset
[13:38] Jonathan Bean : Herbert Spencer talkes about the social organism as society as a living being we are all a part of.
[13:38] Leon : Exactly John, best we can do is set boundaries within systems, and export / let those systems proliferate
[13:40] Darrell Duane : See Daniel Schmachtenberger's vision on this John Waters: http://civilizationemerging.com/new-economics-series-1/
[13:41] Martin Dow : @John Waters - "not treading on each others toes" .. part of the collective behavioural protocol?
[13:42] Martin Dow : @John Waters - we must have a means to resolve conflict ..
[13:42] Martin Dow : .. at nested scales ++
[13:44] Jakub Lanc : Sorry, wasn't here
[13:44] Guilherme Tiezzi : Guys, unfortunately time zones and our moment here in Brazil did not help me to be with you as I would like.
I am in the Amazon-Araguaia River, making part of the Farm of the Future Ecosystem with has a special focus in a AgroFoodF2F ( Family to Family ).
We are part of the ERC ( Ecosystem Restoration Camp ) movement orchestrated, as a distributed network in the UK.
Would love have you guys visiting us down here.
I have been with Francesca in Enspiral some years ago in New Zeland.
[13:44] Jakub Lanc : Seeing my name on some list, but not sure what does it relate to? :))
[13:45] Francesca : hi there Gui!!
[13:45] Renata Ballesteros : Sign me up! would love to come visit
[13:45] Guilherme Tiezzi : Hi Francesca !
[13:46] Simon Grant : ethics of care -- nice!
[13:46] Laura James : Fascinating Renata! thank you :)
[13:47] Renata Ballesteros : It's been amazing! https://voidnetwork.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/The-Ethics-of-Care-Personal-Political-and-Global-by-Virginia-Held.pdf
[13:48] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Pad for this session here: https://pad.disroot.org/p/A_new_platform_co-op_for_collaborative_tools
[13:51] Derek : What's the difference between stewarding and curating?
[13:54] Derek : Is it possible to paste images in disroot?
[13:55] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Good question! To me: Curating is more about content (e.g. the content of this conference!) and Stewarding is "looking after..." but I am sure others will give different answers...
[13:55] Sam Peters : stewarding = maintaining?
[13:56] Laura James : we talk a lot about stewarding as closely linked to maintaining in the Festival of Maintenance community
[13:56] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : yes, maybe "maintaining" but that could imply a person was "in charge" which a steward is not
[13:56] Sam Peters : gotcha
[13:56] Francesca : I would agree with that. Curating is more of an active role, whereas I would say that as a steward you look after something by ensuring the work needed to maintain is done, but you don't necessarily do the work.
[13:56] Matt Noyes : curating = working/producing
[13:57] Phil Pawlett Jackson : A few oblique thoughts on stewardship: https://medium.com/@philpawlettjackson/the-product-that-generosity-could-be-1-3cb4c59acb8c
[13:58] Matt Noyes : stewarding ~ care work, in DisCO sense?
[13:59] Sam Peters : colleagues have pushed back on the need for multi-stakeholder coops in favor of secondary coops, where each stakeholder group would instead be a cooperative. any thoughts on this?
[14:00] Renata Ballesteros : Interesting, I can see how that would save a lot of structural headaches
[14:01] Francesca : so would it mean in that case that each coop would have a "representative" in the multi-stakeholder coop to participate in decision-making?
[14:01] Phil Pawlett Jackson : As per fractal groups-in-groups from yesterday. And subsidiarity of enfranchisement
[14:02] Wael Alsaad : .. and rotation of leadership roles
[14:02] Derek : Are these presentations available after the fact?
[14:02] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : it's interesting, the 2nd level cooperatives indeed. One issue I see is how individual members would be able to join?
[14:02] Derek : Would love to see this slide deck... :)
[14:03] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : we will upload it alongside the video :)
[14:03] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : "One issue I see is how individual members would be able to join?" YES - we HAVE to define this...
[14:03] Derek : thank you
[14:04] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : who is "inside" and "outside" the "membrane"...?
[14:04] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : and what does it mean to be "inside"?
[14:04] Sam Peters : a good example of a cooperative of cooperatives is Up & Go (https://www.upandgo.coop/). it's a platform coop that offers scheduling & online-stuff for cleaning coops in nyc.
[14:04] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : We featured Up and Go at OPEN 2018 - love what they do
[14:05] Sam Peters : i find their business structure genius!
[14:05] Albert Tucker : Mondragon is a great example of co-op of co-ops
[14:06] Albert Tucker : https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/about-us/
[14:06] Derek : Meta...
[14:08] Sam Peters : @ francesca yes but this is implemented differently depending on what the member coops are comfortable with. sometimes it's a separate "steering committee" rather than a board of directors
[14:10] Gary Alexander : What is Alfredo's organisation?
[14:10] Derek : Who is the current speaker? Sorry I missed this
[14:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Session chair - So Jung Rim (Social Innovation Exchange)
Alfredo Lopez - May First Movement Technology
Francesca Pick - Greaterthan, Enspiral
Petter Joelson - collective.tools, digiDemLab
Albert Tucker - The Social Business Network, Etico (Fairtrade organisations)
[14:10] Derek : Thanks
[14:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : See the pad: https://pad.disroot.org/p/A_new_platform_co-op_for_collaborative_tools
[14:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : good notes being taken there too - thanks note makers :))))
[14:13] Wael Alsaad : agree -- it is a clash of digital-civilizations
[14:13] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : "what's the relationship between the people that make the tools and the people who use the tools?" - May First work on developing this relationship...
[14:15] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : we might run out of time if each pannelist speaks for this long...
[14:15] So : Hi Alfredo, you have 1 more min (for your 5 min inspiration!) :)
[14:15] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : ;)
[14:19] Wael Alsaad : which new economic dynamics utilize such a replacement ?
[14:19] Derek : I hope we'll hear from our other speakers... :)
[14:19] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : lol
[14:19] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : me too!
[14:20] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : @mary - see private chat
[14:20] Derek : Francesca did great work with Innovation For Change
[14:23] Julie Collishaw : Thinking of stewards as more than one person is helpful -
[14:24] Wael Alsaad : big like @francesca
[14:24] mike hales : The 'dance' of curating? People dance!
[14:25] Laura James : hugely agreeing - people as connectors and linkers is the best thing, a huge value for communities
[14:25] Laura James : but we still tend to prefer the loud ideas labour ;)
[14:25] mike hales : weaving, articulating, care work
[14:25] Francesca : https://academy.betterworktogether.co/p/network-governance-101
[14:26] Wael Alsaad : we have so much unused human sensory-potential , so we can push tech away to let it breack out
[14:26] Simon Grant : Practices first, YES! then decide on the tools that best support the practices
[14:26] Derek : Where's that code? :D
[14:26] Francesca : 50% discount for my course with this coupon: OpenCoop2020
[14:26] Sam Peters : thank you Francesca!
[14:27] Derek : thanks
[14:27] Francesca : For further reference there are a few slides here too with the info: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1C6sTyfaF0flm77CjCeqCuw5JXqWRUQMoZGkUxIqw-kY/edit?usp=sharing
[14:28] Francesca : June 23
[14:29] Derek : A lot of collective.tools are based on NextCloud, which is a fantastic alternative to google drive, etc
[14:32] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Petter and tteam have also delivered this which is a VERY cool free alternative to Zoom for anyone ... >> https://meet.collective.tools/
[14:33] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : There are a few coops now offering cooperative clouds. To start meet.coop we got together webarchitects.co.uk, femProcomuns.coop (with CommonsCloud.coop) and collective.tools. If you are aware of more such coops, please let us know!
[14:33] Francesca : Do you know Cobox (by Magma Collective)?
[14:33] Matt Noyes : any connection to disroot and framasoft?
[14:34] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : heard of them but no direct personal contacts, Francesca, do you?
[14:34] Francesca : yes, my colleague works with them
[14:34] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : we are in contact with french groups running so called chatons, which work in the framasoft network
[14:34] Francesca : if interested: https://cobox.cloud/
[14:35] Sam Peters : is there a coop/FOSS version of trello?
[14:35] Derek : Deck
[14:35] So : Hi Petter, you have 1 min. :)
[14:35] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : we use Phabricator a somewhat complex project management platform, check it out here projectes.commonscloud.coop
[14:35] Matt Noyes : Sam - Taiga?
[14:35] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : Wikipedia community also uses Phabricator
[14:35] Sam Peters : thanks, i'll check these out
[14:35] Derek : I don't know if it's standalone but Deck is an optional app for NextCloud
[14:36] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : Deck works inside NC but is rather limited, did you use it with many people?
[14:36] Derek : No, just for solo projects
[14:37] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : then it's just perfect
[14:38] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Projects of 1 = not a huge collaborative challenge! lol
[14:38] Sam Peters : lol
[14:38] Derek : I collaborate GREAT with myself... most of the time ;)
[14:38] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : haha!
[14:38] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : me too - sometimes
[14:38] Wael Alsaad : I am willing to design Fairchain trademark for OliveOil like the efforts done for coffee :#OpenOlive Project
[14:39] Laura James : this is really useful experience, thanks Albert for sharing
[14:40] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : the bit where the money comes in is often given the most importance .... TOO TRUE
[14:40] Wael Alsaad : the purpose is solidarity social fairchain
[14:41] Sam Peters : YES albert
[14:41] So : Albert you have 1 min.
[14:44] Animorph : well done for setting it up!
[14:44] Laura James : *claps*
[14:44] Derek : It's great
[14:44] Matt Noyes : Excellent!
[14:45] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : We're VERY happy to be here - putting our principles into practice :)
[14:45] Animorph : the more co-operative infrastructure the merrier
[14:45] Sam Peters : that's why i love open coop. you talk the talk & walk the walk
[14:46] Mark Simmonds : I will have to leave very shortly in order to facilitate another workshop. I have lots to contribute, particularly around co-operative governance of digital commons. Is there a place where this conversation will continue?
[14:47] Derek : At the very least there's a space in the crowd notes: https://pad.disroot.org/p/A_new_platform_co-op_for_collaborative_tools
[14:47] Animorph : 'it just works'
[14:48] Robert Best : BBB best from my experience, but haven't tried jitsi for something of similar scale
[14:48] Derek : @mark simmonds we also have a social network discussing social coops at social.coop
[14:49] Animorph : FACTTIC in Argentina run Jitsi for up to 17-20 people
[14:49] Animorph : (then it breaks)
[14:49] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : good to know - so BBB is way better :)
[14:49] Jonathan Bean : I added some more feedback and feature requests to the BBB feedback page. https://pad.disroot.org/p/BBB2020
[14:49] Simon Grant : jitsi and others effectiveness all depend on the server, in my experience. U-Lab have used jitsi effectively
[14:49] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : @simon - with how many people?
[14:50] Simon Grant : @oli sorry I don't recall details
[14:50] 944685 : jitsi and bbb run on the same protocol so their performance is similar when the server is properly tweaked. I think
[14:51] 944685 : web rtc
[14:51] So : Woutercould you wrap up in 1 min so that we can move onto the breakouts
[14:52] Animorph : we are joining meet.coop as a consumer member
[14:53] Animorph : go load balancing!
[14:53] 944685 : balancing load is a huge part of it
[14:54] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : YES
[14:54] Francesca : Maybe Opencollective.com could be useful?
[14:54] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : if it can be done well it will make the service much more usable
[14:54] 944685 : we have a jitsi instance and handle like 50 in a mtg
[14:54] Animorph : nice
[14:55] Derek : wow
[14:55] 944685 : But this falls short of what movement people in the us say they need which is hundreds of people and zoom gives that
[14:55] 944685 : soo...we need a cultural change here
[14:55] Animorph : WebArchs say the current meet.coop can do 200
[14:55] Jonathan Bean : It may also depend on where people are using the video conference server from.
[14:55] Sam Peters : or a cluster of servers
[14:56] 944685 : Animorph -- yeah, I know. I haven't seen that happen but would be great!
[14:56] Animorph : :)
[14:56] Matt Noyes : using Jami for small-scale communication
[14:56] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : If you didn't download the slides, here's a link: https://cloud.meet.coop/s/fZEsyiwTytQdFcQ
[14:56] Derek : Thanks!
[14:57] 944685 : Question plaguing us (the people us) is do we need those big convergences anymore?
[14:57] Petter : @944685 we're really trying to make it work for large groups that's the aim
[14:59] Sam Peters : are there any coop clouds that support cloud functions? would be nice to utilize serverless tech as it develops to keep up with the capitalists
[14:59] Animorph : current PCC/ Mondragon course has ~350 people attending, breaking into two groups in different timezones, helpful to be able to handle numbers in some cases...
[14:59] David Jacovkis : we do need to aggregate resources for infrastructure and tech work
[14:59] Derek : Can you say more on that, Sam?
[14:59] Simon Grant : many of us happy with C, but i think it is vital, essential, to provide for people who want A and B
[14:59] Matt Noyes : A, B, and C depending on the project...
[15:00] Sam Peters : like if a web app can avoid having to host a backend by only using cloud functions as their endpoints, it would save some money
[15:00] mike hales : Funding is one possible contribution
[15:01] Francesca : You can only be in model C in so many systems at once...that is my concern - i.e. if every service and product I used meant I had to join a different coop fully, that would not be possible
[15:01] mike hales : Crowdfuning, even
[15:01] Jonathan Bean : What if people conribute their surplus computer services.
[15:01] Matt Noyes : Agree with Francesca -- would like to hear what others think about this
[15:01] Jonathan Bean : distributed computing from the users.
[15:02] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : contributing servers / computing power would be a very useful contribution
[15:02] Francesca : like that idea
[15:02] Sam Peters : sounds like blockchain
[15:02] Derek : like the seti@home model
[15:02] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Agree with Francesca -- would like to hear what others think about this +1
[15:02] Wael Alsaad : would be great if the contribution is part of MutualCredit system
[15:02] Derek : powered by BOINC: https://boinc.berkeley.edu/
[15:03] Renata Ballesteros : there are so many projects I would love to contribute to, but not enough time! Sometimes it's nice to be able to pay a fee and still be involved
[15:03] Sam Peters : very interesting, thanks @derek
[15:03] Jonathan Bean : I have extra computers just sitting around so it would be nice to contribute these resources some how.
[15:03] Renata Ballesteros : It'd be nice to do that in an alternative currency
[15:04] Derek : It's a strange dynamic where techies end up being vital tent poles for these spaces
[15:04] Matt Noyes : thanks, Mike, for this framing
[15:04] Albert Tucker : I think at different times one is in one of those spaces or the other
[15:05] Jonathan Bean : I think having many options to contribute would work the best
[15:05] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : It's a strange dynamic where techies end up being vital tent poles for these spaces ++++1 = maybe meet.coop should aim to pay them REALLY well!?
[15:05] Wael Alsaad : @renata the idea of decreased dependance on money system and dissovle obstacles of engagement
[15:05] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : Here's the wiki page on Contributions to get a feel: https://wiki.meet.coop/wiki/Contributions
[15:06] Robert Best : What is the nature of the relationship between meet.coop and the team that develops BigBlueButton?
[15:06] Jonathan Bean : Apps and services should be personalized to each person, so the app should adapt to the user not just the other way around.
[15:06] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : A thread On Decentralisation : https://forum.meet.coop/c/community/6
[15:06] Matt Noyes : subsidiarity of care and stewardship
[15:07] mike hales : Thorough diversity and plurality :))
[15:07] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : And "From Exchange to Contributions": https://forum.meet.coop/t/from-exchange-to-contributions/85/13
[15:07] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : @wouter @petter:
What is the nature of the relationship between meet.coop and the team that develops BigBlueButton?
[15:07] Susannah Browning : with the care work it feels like this gets left out of the equation as it's possibly beyond a lot of people's actual experience so they don't recognise it's actual importance
[15:08] Renata Ballesteros : @Wael, agreed. Computing power idea is neat, some cool partnership could be arranged with holo.host i'm sure
[15:08] Francesca : enable the involvement to dynamically and gradually change with people's situation
[15:09] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : Hi Robert! We did contact Fred Dixon, the coordinator of BBB. No reply yet. But we're starting to engage in the community channels with codre patches
[15:09] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : and requests
[15:09] Petter : i dont think we've been in contact with BBB developers at all? have you wouter
[15:09] Les : @Francesca absolutely!
[15:09] Simon Grant : that's what Oli does with volunteer work for Open 2020!
[15:09] Susannah Browning : there's an element of care in all relationships, its not some formal distinct category once it becomes an economic relationship
[15:10] John Waters : BBB was developed collaboratively by and for academia,
[15:10] Jonathan Bean : How do we contribute back to the people developing the BBB software?
[15:10] Renata Ballesteros : Really good point, @Susannah. Care work has a history of beign taken for granted. I wonder how it can be fairly compensated and valued through means other fiat money
[15:11] Animorph : go team!
[15:11] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : thanks Animorph for your support!!
[15:12] Jonathan Bean : Should we create a community to take care of the care takers?
[15:12] Francesca : love it!
[15:12] Derek : Recognition?
[15:12] Jonathan Bean : disco.coop
[15:12] David Jacovkis : @John we can contribute first with real world usage --> bug reports ; also with the "glue code" developed to automate deployments
[15:12] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : join the community and take care, we have lots to take care of together, it's not only techie stuff
[15:13] Martin Dow : @osb @Simon please, if there is some kind of channel for the tech people here please do say
[15:13] Matt Noyes : I agree -- DisCO and Loomio/Hum
[15:13] Animorph : community.coops.tech
[15:13] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : @Martin - there is a forum for meet.coop
[15:13] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://forum.meet.coop/
[15:14] Derek : social.coop
[15:14] Jonathan Bean : Social.coop could become the platform for careing for the care takers.
[15:15] Wael Alsaad : Care: When they see the positive impact of their work on the ground .. so we have to measure somehow by building nodes of social entrepreneurship
[15:15] Robert Best : is the text chat interface pretty slow/laggy for everyone ? I still get the video/audio fine, but the chat for me is really slow :P
[15:15] mike hales : Reduce reuse recycle !!
[15:15] Sam Peters : +1 Petter
[15:15] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : +1 for social.coop :-)
[15:16] Martin Dow : @osb @Derek.. okay thanks
I'm working with Cloudron packaging, fwiw, https://forum.cloudron.io/
[15:16] mike hales : yes chat is lagging
[15:16] Jonathan Bean : Let's crowdfund to buy some infrastructure and land to take care of the care takers.
[15:16] Matt Noyes : Do as little dev as possible -- interesting. Emphasis on use, coordination, sharing, integration of existing tools...
[15:16] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : I like that too
[15:17] Jakub Lanc : An overarching sentiment here around devs (at least in some areas) is many of them are somewhat "spoilt" (in terms of expected rewards) by the big corp demand and market valuation
[15:17] Jakub Lanc : Limited, contextual experience tho
[15:17] Renata Ballesteros : Agreeing with Albert. Recognizing care work as essential as tech work, compensating with current-sees to see its flow, make it exchangeable for currencies like JOOLES
[15:17] Wouter @femProcomuns.coop : yes, don't reinvent the wheel, reuse, automate software deployment, contribute upstream where possible
[15:17] Renata Ballesteros : asset-backed
[15:17] mike hales : Contribution accounting !!
[15:18] Derek : COVID as driver for online communities!
[15:18] Albert Tucker : and also none of us really want to use zoom????
[15:18] Martin Dow : @Jakub - the danger is see-sawing between "commercial" and "social" to get "UBI". It is unfortunate there is a distinction.
[15:19] Matt Noyes : Oli has a nice touch as a facilitator.
[15:19] Jonathan Bean : Contribution accounting systems like Disco Contribution acounting Trusts CATS and contribution reward systems.
[15:19] Matt Noyes : Thanks to all
[15:19] Martin Dow : @panel, all - thanks!
[15:19] Animorph : thanks!
[15:19] Petter : Also help with communication work and design would be cool
[15:19] mike hales : https://www.org.meet.coop/