OPEN 2020 Conceptualising our future


Main Open 2020 pad at https://pad.disroot.org/p/r.efab6c7b230b44e36ce47a0b2dbaf72e


Ontology of what? Issues around defining the new economy; what do we need to be able to build what we want to build?


10.00: Introduction: Dave Darby and Simon Grant
10.10: Breakout rooms
10:45: Report back  - What were the most common / important points raised? What has been learned? What do you suggest as the next step for us? 

If you would like to help us, please email Simon (asimong) at gmail.com and he will invite you to the new temporary Loomio thread to start off this collaboration. If you have already joined the Open Coop Loomio (https://www.loomio.org/g/TDO68SZb ) you may simply be able to join yourself to the new thread "'new economy' concepts and relationships". That thread format will initially serve to decide on any other tools that we may need (wiki, chat, or whatever) and we can move on from there.

Notes from breakout rooms



Room 3


DaYa, Cecilie, Wael, Simon
DaYa living in central Portugal, off grid. Community organising for Holochain. Conscious dance.
Cecilie -- economist by profession, supporting UNESCO programme. Increasing concern with cognitive dissonance. Interest in Commoning -- global network. Developing a hybrid of time credit and LETS; PhD under Jem Bendell. 
Wael - developing collaborative Fairchain  hybrid-business platform which brings consumers and producers together in Palestine and including diaspora-engagement within their homelands .. I need help with 
1. TradeMark registration and 2. modeling a transparent Fairchain without sophisticated technologies like Blockchain 3. Identifying kickstarter project to launch with the website.
Martin Dow -- moved from UK to republic of Ireland -- tech person, can do things -- why? through Holochain -- helped Gary Alexander with VSM. Couple of years in blockchain development, not a fan. Biomimicry, emergence.
Cecilie: concept of "sustainability" is an obstacle. 
Wael: when I finally started to build something on the ground, try to apply these concepts on the ground. Collaborative entrepreneurship. No perfect ontology.
DaYa: most important to redefine our needs. More awareness about the cycles of life. Linear thinking feels more masculine, cyclical is more feminine. More feminine needed. If we want to go fast, need to go slowly.
Martin: build communicative capacity, 
Wael: list projects, develop mission. 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16aqiWAZKI5z2k1a3lcfCVzYDyn4854KWKRZLujBCnk4/edit
Cecilie: start on yesterday's document, cluster around agreed vocabulary, explore periphery.


Room 5


Grace / Oli
Has been thinking about this - hearing from people all over the world
because of the workshop Grace is running - The FUTURE AINT WHAT IT USED TO BE - donation based
Idea - to rethink our economic systems - money / mutual credit
what's working / not
Ownership / the commons / story ship
Governance > then people present and discuss... /new models and money

ONTOLOGY?


Grace - I am not an "ontology" person - I have an ontological background... but when u listen to humans - we can listen at several levels:
    1. What did they say? - which we're bad at
    2. What emotion or state they're in - we're good at this...
    3. People's intention or commitment - if u can listen at this level there's a lot more room for creation and collaboration together

e.g. Capitalism - we all know what you mean - but it can be very different things...
So the ontology makes a big difference - language moves 
"oh that's SICK" - it could be bad or good!!

How do we find the core vs the variety?
Where are the things we need to share? 
Wouldn't it be cool if we all used the same one and it was easy for us to track conversations between groups - and to move between groups - and to share knowledge between groups - here agree all of the people that have used this vocabulary in this way ... let's get them all together...
e.g. zero waste / circular economy 
What are the things which are the MUSTS about our new society ???
What are ok to be different / diverse....?

Oli. - to bring together our movement ... we haven't agreed on anything - and need to in order to unite

Grace - awareness of self awareness and communication are deeply entwined 
e.g. arguing / getting triggered by Michael - then going and apologizing
So it doesn't matter if we don't have identical language - assume there is some truth in what people are saying - we all have ego and need to feel significant... 
Money - hard and tied in to self awareness - 

people need to do:
    Personal transformation - with a commitment to stay together
    Transform our dependence on Money - the main means that the powers that be keep us quiet 
    
    When we're more dependent on relationships than money we are free...
    
Let's try a small project together - trying and transforming our relationships 
first thing - write a list of things that should happen - 
supress our egos -  agree on the steps

Oli - need for BIG UMBRELLA - 
Grace - everyone has their piece of the puzzle which inspires them
I love you - we're all people - and it's going to work out...

SCaleable - YES it has to be 
    
-----------
Mark Simmonds

1 - terminology / languge
2 - context - if we're trying to be rationale... and stuff is collapsing all around us while capitalism is reinventing itself and changing the rules


Room 6


There was an attempt a few years ago to define  "Transition Enterprise" that might be useful context for this discussion: https://www.transitionculture.org/2011/06/14/so-what-exactly-is-a-transition-enterprise/

Great term brought up - we might be a "linguistic antibody"

Note: Shakespeare invented 422 new words to better convey his meaning.


Plenary discussion


Linguistic antibodies -- need time to explain complicated ideas. Have to simplify and that's difficult.
Values of building something together  -- refine what we mean when we actually do things together. Improve our communication skills so that we don't get triggered. Stay in the conversation even when its uncomfortable.

Oliver Sylvester-Bradley (point from above)

Mark Simmonds: internal and external issues. E.g. in discussion about DisCOs -- internal understanding. External, setting up co-ops, what's the relevant language for the outside world? Also the context...

Phil Pawlett Jackson10:55 AM
I think this conversation concerns the interdependence of Ontology and Epistemology.

Somewhat as the church considers itself to be the living interpretation of a ‘Word’ - it should be similarly useful for a fiscal commons to be living epistemological keys by the way they conduct themselves within interpretative community - doing so conspicuously in public (coram publico). So, UBI or currencies etc - we are the living words.

There is then need for 
- Glossary/Concordance - a dynamic doctrinal statement which could be a wiki with a revision-permissioned list of word-meanings which sits at the core of the subscribing community.
- Rituals of meaning-making in these Symbolic Ontologies - so a eucharist for commons - to forge language and to sustain it’s perpetual reinterpretation, in public participatory displays of language-making and poetic consensus


[15:17]  PUBLIC_CHAT_CLEAR
[15:19] Les : no break?
[15:21] Wael Alsaad : protocols are related to ontology
[15:22] Simon Grant : http is also a protocol
[15:22] Simon Grant : enabling any web browser to communicate with any web server
[15:23] Martin Dow : @Wael Alsaad yes
[15:23] mike hales : Mapping . . yay!
[15:23] Simon Grant : yes, that's a lot of my interest in ontology
[15:24] Leon : Sorry, the chat disappeared, I missed the creative music project address and name! Are you still here? :)
[15:24] Susannah Browning : mapping projects which map the mapping projects = network
[15:24] Simon Grant : Oli saved the older shat
[15:24] Wael Alsaad : when producers and consumer own the network no need for marketing , we respond to each other needs
[15:24] mike hales : TAGS as map? Tag clouds as maps? Mapping ON DEMAND at the point of need? Provided that the tagged data are in the network . .
[15:25] Simon Grant : how does murmurations relate to dat?
[15:25] Susannah Browning : and it become needs based which counters the pseudo-satisfiers of consumption
[15:25] Jonathan Bean : I think this is the pad for this session https://pad.disroot.org/p/aggregating-the-decentralised-commons
[15:27] Martin Dow : @Wael Alsaad  @Simon Grant 
fwiw concrete example I've used before for http/web and scholarly publishing DOI interop
https://lov.linkeddata.es/dataset/lov/vocabs/irw
[15:27] Simon Grant : a bit like DOAP was in XML? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOAP
[15:29] Renata Ballesteros : Is the plugin also called murmurations?
[15:29] Adam McKenty : @Renata yes
[15:29] Martin Dow : reminding me of OAI-ORE, this 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAI-ORE
.. which could be useful for further interop ?
[15:29] Renata Ballesteros : brilliant, thank you
[15:30] Nick Sellen : oh, did I somehow miss the start? I thought it was due to start 15:30, i.e. now?
[15:30] Adam McKenty : It's not yet in the WP plugin repository, but we'll show how to get it shortly.
[15:30] Sam Peters : this is so cool
[15:30] Adam McKenty : @Nick me too!
[15:31] Wael Alsaad : love it
[15:32] matslats : Hey Oli credit where its due, I did this in 2016 http::creditcommons.net/map for community currencies.
[15:32] Tony Shannon : very smart idea.. Q around the means of agreeing the protocol - maximum /minimum dataset etc
[15:33] Mothiur Rahman : Q: using the example you provided (old schoool - write blog, post in on twitter/fb/other social media platforms), what happens with Murmurations?  Once I write a blog, murmurations will identify which social media platforms I'm associated with and then post it on all those social media platforms or something else?
[15:33] Sam Peters : we need to reach out to the people at The Internet of Ownership because they maintain https://ioo.coop/directory/
[15:34] Simon Grant : @martin yes, there are several efforts in the past -- as my voiced question
[15:34] Martin Dow : @Simon Thanks for asking
[15:34] Graham : https://www.solidarityeconomy.coop did some initial work using Linked Open Data. Really needs to be picked up and integrated with this type of approach. Big data for us not for corproates.
[15:34] John Waters : Is the set of categories (fields) limited to those shown in the examples, or can the set be extended?
[15:34] Martin Dow : @Simon.. I have a followon question :-)
[15:34] Martin Dow : ^^ @osb
[15:34] Graham : https://github.com/SolidarityEconomyAssociation
[15:35] Jonathan Bean : CAn we cooperate to add these links and resources and notes to the pad. https://pad.disroot.org/p/aggregating-the-decentralised-commons
[15:35] Martin Dow : @John Waters - good question.  Semantic interop
[15:35] Simon Grant : @Martin -- I'd love to get people with this awareness together
[15:36] Wael Alsaad : to combine that with MC, we can develop a metric to support the site that has problem to pay back their credits for example, or think about any other metric to pay more attention to the sites that in need for attention
[15:36] Martin Dow : @Simon - please count me in.  Nice to meet you.
[15:38] John Waters : Is anything being developed at a meta-level to categorize, cluster, filter, etc.? Is there any provision to record/map connections made and synergy generated?
[15:40] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : that's what Adam is showing now :)
[15:40] John Waters : I realize that. I typed my question before that started.
[15:40] Martin Dow : OAI-ORE and its precursoe OAI-PMH (protocol for metadata harvesting) does this.  But for stewarded collections, institutional repositories
[15:41] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : OAI-ORE!? please send links
[15:41] Martin Dow : @osb https://www.openarchives.org/ore/
[15:41] Martin Dow : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OAI-ORE
[15:41] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : thanks
[15:42] Martin Dow : Also for json-ld, http://www.openarchives.org/ore/0.9/jsonld
[15:42] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : HI COLM!! :))
[15:42] Martin Dow : Could be useful to do tech transfer, and also interop between islands of exchange
[15:43] Mary Fee : I can' see the map...
[15:45] Simon Grant : how do you deal with data quality --- confirmation of the accuracy of what people enter?
[15:45] matslats : there's a new telegram group called community currency alliance
[15:46] Jonathan Bean : Where do I provide feedback for this meet.coop BBB experience? I had difficulty firguring out how to change which microphone  I would use. I had to go to the chrome settings for the default microphone to change that and refresh the meeting.
[15:47] mike hales : I'll create a pad. Jonathan back a moment, with a url
[15:48] Jonathan Bean : Besides that I am impressed how much it can handle.
[15:49] John Waters : The options in the form are rather limited. Can't it be redesigned to allow the addition of arbitrary new categories?
[15:49] mike hales : Here is a pad for feedback from this meeting, on the experience of BBB  https://pad.disroot.org/p/BBB2020
[15:50] Jonathan Bean : thanks
[15:50] Simon Grant : How will you motivate people to keep the murmurations info up to date?
[15:51] Mary Fee : Don't forget to give us a brea between sessions
[15:51] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : 1. Adam = Technical - code - the protocol - Schemas etc

    2. Oli =  Community Use cases / Adoption / uptake, Outputs (maps / directories / aggregators)

    3. Matt = Use case example - using Murmurations for other purposes e.g. Mutual Credit
[15:52] Solidarity Economy Association : WHich room would you like me to join?
[15:53] Simon Grant : 3 rooms, how many minutes?
[15:53] Jonathan Bean : Room 2 looks relevant.
[15:58] Thomas Heiser : For those people just joining, we're currently in breakout sessions.
[16:19] Wael Alsaad : here i present 3 maps of murmuration 

https://medium.com/@wael.alsaad/the-seed-of-global-brain-application-is-an-integral-collaboration-formula-b8ca80db5a
[16:20] Renata Ballesteros : can't hear Oli
[16:20] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : will refresh
[16:20] Yasuaki Kudo : Oli try refreshing web browser
[16:23] mike hales : After breakouts, and rebooting this room on re-entry, my status is sowing 'away'. But I'm here :)  Software bug
[16:24] Renata Ballesteros : Could you zoom in in your area and also work with murmurations at a small, local leve?
[16:24] Renata Ballesteros : level*
[16:25] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Could you zoom in in your area and also work with murmurations at a small, local level? - YES absolutely. - you would just need to set a term to define your local network e.g. Cambridge X network
[16:25] Renata Ballesteros : perf, love it
[16:26] mike hales : "Just getting rolling when the breakout closed". A common experience ? What kind of relevance do short-sharp breakouts have, in our long-terms development, and community forming and coordinating?
[16:26] Martin Dow : @Renata @osb  .. down to a node-per-street? village :-)
[16:26] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : sure!
[16:26] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : it's for u to defnie
[16:26] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : define
[16:27] Nick Sellen : me, I haven't worked with Transformap directly, but been aware of it and some people/networks around it
[16:27] Martin Dow : ^^ @osb ++
[16:27] mike hales : "Curating" is a term that's getting some usage today. I suspect it means several different things. So . . a core feel or intuition, but diverse implementations in different domains?
[16:29] Sam Peters : Black Socialists in America maintains a "dual power map" https://blacksocialists.us/dual-power-map
[16:30] Martin Dow : I've some servers on and participant in https://b4rn.org.uk/ and pulling together some community cloud services - I'd like to connect in @osb @adam
[16:30] John Waters : I want to be able to use it - but with a richer set of categories/properties than in the examples.
[16:30] Mary Fee : I was trying to build a map of networks for a different area, economic reform - http://www.themap.org.uk - but didn't get very far!
[16:30] Martin Dow : @John Waters let's discuss?
[16:30] John Waters : @Martin Yes
[16:31] Adam McKenty : @John I'm available to chat about that too
[16:31] John Waters : @Adam @Martin Let's arrange a date/time for a Zoom chat?
[16:32] Jakub Lanc : I'm currently creating a generic map data visualization module / plugin based on Mapbox (with ability to pull data from different APIs), would be happy to share that if useful
[16:32] Adam McKenty : Cool!
[16:32] Jakub Lanc : (At this point used for internal Holochain dev community mapping and some local projects)
[16:33] Adam McKenty : We're using Mapbox and Leaflet for the aggregator demo map
[16:34] Martin Dow : @John @Adam - count me in
John - I have to go sadly .. would you coordinate?
[16:35] mike hales : @jakub "Generic map data visualisation plugin" sounds like a good tool to have. :)  Have you seen the Kendraio thread, in Open Apps Ecosystem Loomio group?
[16:36] Martin Dow : good event @osb & all, thankyou, bye
[16:36] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : pad for this session here: https://pad.disroot.org/p/we_are_everyone_%2B_feeedback
[16:36] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : thanks Martin
[16:37] mike hales : I wonder if Iris' Barking project is connected with Reflow project? reflowproject.eu/
[16:38] mike hales : https://reflowproject.eu/
[16:39] mike hales : City-level infrastructures. Related, in Reflow, to waste. But infrastructures, just the same.
[16:39] Jakub Lanc : @Mike: I haven't, will check it out :)
[16:40] Les : 5 shops for 250,000 people
[16:41] mike hales : The entrepreneur who leads Kendraio - sorry, foget his name - seems to be taking the same kind of API-based, custom mapping approach - but with app interfaces more generally.
[16:41] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Daniel Harris
[16:42] mike hales : It' still 'mapping', locally, on demand, in some sense
[16:43] mike hales : "Micro infrastructures for participation". Sounds like a powerful idea :))
[16:43] Les : This is a multi-million pound programme
[16:44] mike hales : Also sounds very much akin to Dave Darby's Low-Impact.org?
[16:46] Jonathan Bean : It is like an ecosystem for ecosystems maybe
[16:46] Jonathan Bean : ecosystems for incubating businesses and people.
[16:46] Wael Alsaad : any intention  or interest to build such a platform in a developing country?
[16:47] Les : Climate change?
[16:47] Jonathan Bean : Where is the next one going to be? Is there a virtual equivalent?
[16:48] Mothiur Rahman : Is "Participatory Cities" connected with the Thriving Cities/C40 initiative?
[16:48] Les : It's top=down, parachuted in
[16:48] Jonathan Bean : The council is the local government?
[16:48] Les : Yes
[16:48] Susannah Browning : partnership with local authorities (the state) is key to the development of the commons
[16:50] Simon Grant : interesting differences of opinion
[16:50] Renata Ballesteros : Many local authorities though, seem still under the illusion that private, economic growth is the key to common wellness
[16:50] Renata Ballesteros : (reducing, privitazing the commons)
[16:50] Sam Peters : ftp
[16:50] Simon Grant : I'd be really interested in where the different viewpoints are coming from
[16:50] Renata Ballesteros : gotta make sure it is local governments that understand the importance of distributed, common ownership that might not yield economic growth in business as usual
[16:50] Susannah Browning : yes, but that's a political issue
[16:51] Simon Grant : Is there space for people to work through local councils as well as to ignoring them?
[16:51] mike hales : A micro-infrastructure for low-commitment design - another pwerful idea :)) with flexible commitments. "Large scale is important" because componenets have life cycles, get born die . . an evolutionary insight here. This is fabulous
[16:51] Trevor Hilder : The Preston Model was kick-started by the collapse of private sector development.
[16:51] Susannah Browning : business as usual is out of the window at this point anyway - but equally local authority funding is crashing
[16:53] Mothiur Rahman : Its helpful to distinguuish between "the state" and local government
[16:53] Susannah Browning : what is happening in terms of generative economic development funding via the prototype?
[16:53] Trevor Hilder : @mothiur Yes, it is important to understand different levels of recursion.
[16:54] mike hales : 'The local state' is a different setting
[16:54] mike hales : In the 80s, in London, 'in and against the State' was an important concept and commitment
[16:55] Jonathan Bean : what is the website?
[16:55] mike hales : 'Region' also matters. And bio-region?
[16:55] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://www.weareeveryone.org/
[16:56] mike hales : @jonathan - website for what? for the London reference?
[16:56] Susannah Browning : yes, on a bio-regional level, and differentiating between rural and urban contexts
[16:56] Sam Peters : love mighty networks. open coop might wanna consider that
[16:56] mike hales : Particularity! Within large-scale systemic vision
[16:57] mike hales : "Vernacular" within global" vision and network?
[16:57] Iris Schönherr (Every One Every Day) : our online platform https://www.weareeveryone.org/digtial-platform
[16:58] Jonathan Bean : Thanks
[16:58] Iris Schönherr (Every One Every Day) : Susannah, you're breaking up for me
[16:58] Jonathan Bean : the sound is breaking up
[16:58] Jonathan Bean : she can turn of her video
[16:59] Susannah Browning : what is happening in terms of generative economic development funding via the prototype?
[16:59] Susannah Browning : have you got any mechanisms in place?
[17:02] Mary Fee : About money.  Some people are being paid to run the project.  Most of the people participating are volunteering?
[17:03] Wael Alsaad : any intention or interest to build such a platform in a developing country?
[17:05] Mary Fee : So they are unemployed?
[17:05] Jonathan Bean : This resource might be helpful about local inclusive economic development. http://www.nlgn.org.uk/public/2020/inclusive/
[17:06] Jonathan Bean : I would suggest crowd sourcing funding and resources.
[17:08] Susannah Browning : and rebel cities and fab cities
[17:08] Nick Sellen : I am missing the open source connections, https://www.mightynetworks.com is proprietary right? participatory open source software would seem a great fit, so can get features into the software using the same as the wider principles
[17:09] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : yeah Mighty is closed source
[17:10] Sam Peters : we should reverse engineer & FOSS it
[17:10] Les : You can't have a circular economy without a circular currency
[17:11] Susannah Browning : work with what is there!
[17:12] Renata Ballesteros : I am wondering about local currencies as well (free of interest), any plans on using those?
[17:12] Susannah Browning : it has to be bottom up and adaptive to local conditions
[17:12] Jonathan Bean : There is some ways to fund the development of these open source tools like bounties. https://github.com/sponsors
[17:12] mike hales : "common denominators and design principles" - where does this magic live?
[17:13] mike hales : Pretty labour intensive I guess?
[17:13] mike hales : And a preparedness to develop and lay-down that particular KIND of infrastructure? And the skil and culture?
[17:14] mike hales : R&D infrastructure. design infrastructure
[17:14] Gary Alexander : Is there a dimension of peacemaking and conflict handling?
[17:14] mike hales : design global build local is easy to say. But calls for a lot of focused intentional work in practice?
[17:15] Wael Alsaad : the background, this concept fits in organizing  communities of producers in a developing country as part of an integral supply Fairchain
[17:17] Susannah Browning : Community organising is often political in nature or origin, how much of  a non political space is this?  Is this the intention?
[17:19] Nick Sellen : thanks Mary :) keeping it real
[17:22] Billy Smith : I attended the launch of Participatory City a few years ago.

One of the problems that i saw was the localised nature of the funding, so non-residents couldn't take part.
[17:22] mike hales : Not just 'economy' but 'culture' too
[17:23] mike hales : Not just income but also vision and skill
[17:24] Les : you need a system, not a platform
[17:24] Susannah Browning : This prototype could be the example for taking covid mutual aid local responses onto the next level, which is critical
[17:24] Susannah Browning : a system is made up of platforms
[17:24] Wael Alsaad : to lose the issue of funding: a Mutual-Credit Sponsors build a team to develop community centre and get the credit back when it is sustainable
[17:24] Iris Schönherr (Every One Every Day) : iris@weareeveryone.org
[17:25] Wael Alsaad : solve
[17:25] Jonathan Bean : Maybe having a goal of like creating 1000 living wage democratic economy jobs in worker coops
[17:25] Susannah Browning : yes :)
[17:26] Iris Schönherr (Every One Every Day) : If anyone has ideas how we could create a digital platform for the gig economy in Barking and Dagenham.. ideally co-op.. please do reach out
[17:27] Graham : Thanks Iris
[17:27] Jonathan Bean : I suggest platform.coop and the platform coops now course now in its second week
[17:27] Billy Smith : Why not turn the whole project into a co-operative?
[17:28] Renata Ballesteros : Yeah, it's a great project, but I can't help flinching a bit at the top-down aspect of it without local ownership
[17:28] Billy Smith : Yes
[17:28] Renata Ballesteros : moving away from the paternalistic reliance of government seems pretty key to me
[17:28] mike hales : how is it top-down Renata?
[17:29] Susannah Browning : But how do you build the local ownership? it needs an organisational dimension which this offers.
[17:29] mike hales : just bcos it got £8m funding? or has paid workers?
[17:29] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : maybe kill your cameras
[17:29] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : thank u x
[17:29] Gary Alexander : There is a role for larger scale coordination. If the council genuinely are facilitators, not overlords, that seems fine.
[17:30] Billy Smith : It was created and set up by external people, who were operating on grant-funding and external funding, with it operating as a social enterprise, instead of as a co-operative.
[17:30] mike hales : maybe 'government' isn't the same thing as paternalism? Maybe there are hybrids, altered forms?
[17:30] Adam McKenty : Awesome!
[17:30] Sam Peters : <3
[17:30] Sue bell : Thank you
[17:30] Gary Alexander : Fabulous!
[17:30] Renata Ballesteros : Amazing, thank you!
[17:30] Thomas Heiser : Amazing wrtiting
[17:30] Susannah Browning : Whoop whoop!!
[17:31] Michael Curtin : 🙌
[17:32] Renata Ballesteros : Mr. Gee, do you have a website? anywhere else we can find your owrk?
[17:33] Nick Sellen : https://soundcloud.com/mr-gee-poet
[17:34] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://twitter.com/mrgeepoet
[17:34] mike hales : yay!
[17:34] Michael Curtin : beautiful
[17:37] Mothiur Rahman : And Rumi before Blake - "You are not a drop in the ocean; you are the ocean in a drop"
[17:37] Michael Curtin : that was lovely
[17:37] Michael Curtin : brilliant stuff
[17:37] mike hales : Being "the ocean in a drop" is quite a skill :)
[17:38] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : ditto
[17:39] mike hales : "I have seen the promised land" . . I AM the promised land? Why not . .
[17:40] Adam McKenty : Wow!
[17:40] Adam McKenty : Fantastic.
[17:40] Susannah Browning : Thank you!!!!
[17:40] mike hales : :)))))))
[17:41] Tony Shannon : thankyou
[17:41] Graham : Thanks so much.
[17:41] Graham : high point
[17:41] Cecilie Smith-Christensen : Thank you so much for those gifts!
[17:41] Michael Curtin : Mr Gee, upload your poetry on Resonate!
[17:41] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://pad.disroot.org/p/we_are_everyone_%2B_feeedback
[17:41] Graham : I have to go now. Prep for 6pm meeting. See everyone tomorrow.
[17:42] Mothiur Rahman : https://soundcloud.com/mr-gee-poet
[17:43] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://pad.disroot.org/p/open2020
[17:44] Andres Villalobos : Hi!! Where can iI see the recordings of today´s sessions? Are they available?
[17:44] Renata Ballesteros : As for the earlier conversation: It was created and set up by external people, who were operating on grant-funding and external funding, with it operating as a social enterprise, instead of as a co-operative. <- Yes to all this
[17:44] Mary Fee : Oll - do you think we should have a shot break between sessions?
[17:45] Renata Ballesteros : I think it would be awesome to see it be a co-op where the community gets to vote on decisions
[17:45] Renata Ballesteros : have co-ownership of it
[17:45] matslats : and me! I'll be in the mutual credit panel tomorrow!
[17:45] Michael Curtin : I got the time wrong and missed the Mutual Credit session today!  Was the presentation recorded?
[17:45] Billy Smith : yews
[17:45] Billy Smith : yes
[17:45] Iris Schönherr (Every One Every Day) : Hi all, thanks so much for the opportunity to share what's happening in Barking and Dagenham ...much more info (reports, videos, collaboration calls) can be found here www.participatorycity.org :)
[17:45] Michael Curtin : Thank you
[17:46] Renata Ballesteros : Thank you, Iris
[17:46] Mothiur Rahman : Thanks Iris
[17:46] Jonathan Bean : @renata, FAirshares model can include community members. http://www.fairshares.coop/
[17:46] Susannah Browning : Yes, it really is fantastic
[17:46] Michael Curtin : I haven't seen this meet.coop platform before -- really like it
[17:46] Adam McKenty : Thanks Iris. By the way to your question earlier about a gig economy platform, this might be the place to ask: https://community.coops.tech/
[17:47] Simon Grant : Maybe clearer and more time for breaks?
[17:48] Billy Smith : Maybe a tech-check the day before?

An evening of get-to-know-each-other... :D
[17:50] Simon Grant : @Billy -- the issue is that we did actually have a tech check, but I don't know how we could have tested as scale
[17:50] Jonathan Bean : I am not sure if the rooms on gather have themes too?
[17:50] Susannah Browning : Yes, a pre-event. I often find that it takes me a while to relax in a face to face conference and I've found it the same for an online one!
[17:50] Billy Smith : FB would have worked really well as a subscriber-owned co-operative, but the incestors wouldn't have made as much money...
[17:50] Mothiur Rahman : The lack of Etherpad having a depository is a big disadvantage....
[17:50] Michael Curtin : I just joined Collective Tools to use as a personal cloud tool.  Anyone here from Collective Tools?  Is there any collaboration between Meet.coop and that platform?
[17:50] Mary Fee : Maybe 5 minutes before and after the hour in the continuous sessions, in case people need to go to the loo or get a drink.
[17:51] Billy Smith : @simon: I didn't know that.

Possibly an open invite to the attendee's first?
[17:51] John Waters : It took me many attempts to get into any of the Etherpads. Eventually I found that PaleMoon works (where Firefox and Chromium didn't work).
[17:51] John Waters : I've found Cryptpad much better than Etherpad.
[17:52] Jonathan Bean : maybe have option to switch to low resolution videos more easily without having to reset the video.
[17:52] mike hales : collective.tools petter joelson is on a panel here 13:45 tomorrow
[17:52] Wael Alsaad : with Etherpad, I suggest the 3steps formula /script to initiate an integral collaboration , where people focus on creating content by focusing on the questioning they want to answer together . We can discuss in the right time

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16aqiWAZKI5z2k1a3lcfCVzYDyn4854KWKRZLujBCnk4/edit
[17:52] Billy Smith : scale-out's rather than scale-ups
[17:53] mike hales : and is a founder member of meet.coop
[17:53] Sam Peters : i like that phrasing @billy
[17:53] Mothiur Rahman : XR used Basecamp which enables depository from other kinds of doc systems - how have others found it?
[17:53] Susannah Browning : via locality as platform via the kind of model as Barking and Dagenham
[17:53] mike hales : Scope usualy works better than 'scale'
[17:54] Susannah Browning : replicated as a network  - preferably with a govnt in power that will facilitate that
[17:54] DaYa : we can all be strong together if we see the strength in ourselves first. Thanks for today. Will be listening in again tomorrow
[17:57] Jonathan Bean : like federation
[17:58] Renata Ballesteros : could we kill a few cameras, please? My connection is kicking off
[17:58] Susannah Browning : yes
[17:59] Adam McKenty : I think the technical solution for platform alternatives is interoperability and plugability -- what if we could have a video  platform + depository + collaborative docs + etc  all directly accessible from this interface, but provided by different groups/co-ops/companies? And we could swap out these tools and try different alternatives, within the interface?
[18:00] Sam Peters : making cooperative interfaces will be key
[18:01] Nick Sellen : every project gravitates towards being a discussion about which tool to use and whether we can get single sign on :)
[18:01] Billy Smith : I'm looking to talk with people who want to form a digital fabrication co-operative, as a Seed-Factory System.

If anyone is interested, please give me a shout :D
[18:01] matslats : nextcloud supports social networking  with ActivityPub
[18:02] Kiki : Hi Billy, what kind of Seeds you talking? I'm building https://seedshare.co
[18:02] Sam Peters : @ billy i messaged you privately on here
[18:02] Michael Curtin : so excited to be here!
[18:02] Adam McKenty : Thanks everyone! Thanks Oli and team.
[18:11] Jonathan Bean : https://www.zebrasunite.com/ a community for social entrepreneurs and they are in the proces of becmoing a coop
[18:14] Billy Smith : ty
[18:15] Billy Smith : https://ecologicalland.coop/ does the same thing
[18:15] Billy Smith : they buy land and set up farming co-operatives
[18:16] mike hales : must go in a minute folks . .
[18:17] Billy Smith : it was worse in the morning
[18:23] Billy Smith : https://web.archive.org/web/20121014094321/http://www.fablabamersfoort.nl/en/page/fablab-instructable-0 :D
[18:31] Renata Ballesteros : https://medium.com/@ballesteros.renata/a-solution-to-everything-41809aefa2e8
[18:32] Renata Ballesteros : An article on how I see a way into a healthier economy
[18:39] Susannah Browning : Sandford is a quite a historic coop! But a coop should be flexibly responsive and dynamic to the needs of its members, surely?
[18:40] Billy Smith : In theory...
[18:41] Billy Smith : They are good in terms of how they are run, but they've had to replicate some of the bureaucracy that's required to maintain buildings...
[18:42] Billy Smith : have you heard of David Graber's "Bullshit Jobs"?
[18:44] Renata Ballesteros : no way! haha
[18:44] Renata Ballesteros : i had not
[18:47] Jonathan Bean : I need to go, thanks for chatting, I hope we will figure out this new economy soon.
[18:50] Billy Smith : @Nick: have a look at openbuildinginstitute.org/ :D
[18:50] Billy Smith : https://www.openbuildinginstitute.org/
[18:53] Billy Smith : https://www.opensourceecology.org/ :D
[18:55] Nick Sellen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory I guess has a basic overview, there are some great comics out there
[19:02] Nick Sellen : are there lots of lurkers still listening?
[19:02] Renata Ballesteros : probably
[19:02] Renata Ballesteros : well, 12 people online
[19:05] Billy Smith : self-build housing co-ops
[19:16] Billy Smith : Might be back later on. :D
[21:49] Guilherme Tiezzi : Hi there !
[21:57] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Welcome - but we're all sleeping atm... zzzz
[21:58] Derek : I'll be back ;)
[21:59] Guilherme Tiezzi : Is it already finished for today ?
[21:59] Guilherme Tiezzi : I just logged in from Brazil and kind of trying to find myself with time zone.
[22:00] Guilherme Tiezzi : What is it where the meeting is being held ?
[22:00] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : sorry yes - we kick off again at 8.30BST
[22:00] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : London time
[22:00] Guilherme Tiezzi : Oliver what time is it for you now, please ?
[22:01] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : 22:OO
[22:01] Guilherme Tiezzi : Oki Doki.  Its 18 hrs here.
[22:01] Guilherme Tiezzi : 4 hours difference.... For us down here, we we start at 4 30 AM.
[22:02] Guilherme Tiezzi : Is there any place we can watch what was going on today ?
[22:02] Guilherme Tiezzi : Access videos our presentations ?
[22:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : there will be - but not for a few days at least
[22:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : sorry about the time zones - there's never a good time for everyone...
[22:10] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : I really am going to sleep now - hope we might see you for some of tomorrow
[08:36] Welcome to <b>OPEN 2020</b>!<br><br>See the <a href='https://open.coop/2020info' target='_blank'><u>event info and program here.</u></a><br />The <a href='https://open.coop/2020chat' target='_blank'><u>breakout and networking space is here.</u></a> 
[08:48] Andreas Fletcher : hello :)
[08:52] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Good morning
[08:53] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://pad.disroot.org/p/open2020-offers-wants
[08:55] Phil Pawlett Jackson : Good Morning!
[08:56] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Hi Phil
[08:58] Wael Alsaad : صباح الخير , Guten Morgen, Good Morning and  buenas dias  :)
[08:58] Billy Smith : Good morning :D
[08:58] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : صباح الخير !! ;)
[08:58] Grace : בוקר טוב
[08:58] Billy Smith : or day or evening
[08:58] Grace : It depends on what you have installed.
[08:59] Grace : It really is
[08:59] Billy Smith : yes and no
[08:59] Billy Smith : It's used as TradeTongue...
[09:00] Billy Smith : mostly for international trade
[09:00] Grace : Used to be French...
[09:00] Grace : English is easeir to pronounce for a swede
[09:00] Dave Darby : really difficult spelling though!
[09:00] DaYa : goodmorning from Portugal
[09:00] Billy Smith : it's why it's called the lingua franca... :D
[09:02] Billy Smith : Also, please check the sensitivity of your microphone before you speak... :D
[09:03] Billy Smith : Sorry about that
[09:04] Billy Smith : Sorry about that but no one said anything to me about it.

As soon as i knew that there was a problem, i was able to fix it. :)
[09:07] Grace : That's not what it's about.
[09:07] Billy Smith : A better verrsion of the Prisoner's Dilemma can be found in Douglas Hofstader's work. :D
[09:07] Philip Sheldrake : Can also recommend Super Cooperators, Nowack, 2011, https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/SuperCooperators.html?id=1LtzKfDcXlUC
[09:07] Grace : It's about they are being interrogated before going into jail... not about digging a tunnel
[09:08] Wael Alsaad : one feedback,  yesterday i missed often that a slide is presented, because I like to minimize to see the speaker ... So, when the presenter is sharing a slide, audience should be announced.
[09:08] Dave Ahlquist : Hi all, are slide decks/ recordings available for yesterdays and todays proceedings? I wasn't able to attend yesterday and likely the same today due to day job.
[09:09] Billy Smith : Very good primer can be found here, https://ncase.me/trust/ :D
[09:09] Grace : Game theory is interesting if you think that most of human behavior is self-interested, when in fact, people do not behave in self-interested ways.
[09:10] Billy Smith : It also shows how the various starting conditions can shape the overall environment.
[09:10] Billy Smith : Excellent model of feedback systems.
[09:10] Grace : Or, better said, most of our self-interest  not obvious. For example, we have a need to feel like we are "good people"
[09:10] Julie Collishaw : Buddhism in action - gaming in action so we have reciprocal action
[09:10] Grace : We have a need to be liked.
[09:10] Grace : We have all kinds of needs that have nothing to do with winning a game
[09:10] John Waters : Robert Axelrod "The Evolution of Co-operation"
[09:11] DaYa : @dave recordings will be available later, i dont know about the slides
[09:11] Billy Smith : Economies of scale of group activity. :D
[09:11] Dave Ahlquist : thanks @DaYa
[09:12] Billy Smith : Remember that "The Tragedy of The Commons" was written by a right-wing economist with an axe to grind...
[09:13] Philip Sheldrake : If you want to convey these ideas to people who might not be so fond of books, then this is the only link you need!! ... https://ncase.me/trust/
[09:13] Dave Darby : Billy - exactly. Elinor Ostrom trashed him
[09:13] Gary Alexander : After Elinor Ostrom's work on the commons became widely known, Garrett Hardin is supposed to have said his paper should be renamed "The Tragedy of the unmanaged commons"
[09:13] Wael Alsaad : coming together on missions  and help projects that are trying to build new realities helping people and soil to heal.
[09:14] Anthony Green : Using Rules to Screen for Cooperative Types: Rule-Following and Restraint in Common Pool Resource Systems

https://ideas.repec.org/p/unm/umamet/2012055.html
[09:14] John Waters : The word "trashed" is rather strong. Maybe "qualified" would be more appropriate.
[09:14] Dave Darby : John - true
[09:15] Wael Alsaad : I am introducing the term, diaspora-engagement in my startup so that local is extended .. we can transcend our consciousness to any local spot in the universe and interact with it ..
[09:15] Billy Smith : Also that the shared infrastructure can be a way of maintaining group cohesion.

It has worked in one of the valley's back home, where the common flock of sheep has been reason for the community to come together.
[09:16] Gary Alexander : But large scale coordination is desirable, and is possible bottom up. The best framework for that I know of is viable systems. Small local groups working together at a somewhat larger scale, and then those larger groups working together, erc.
[09:17] DaYa : trust is the foundation of virtue
[09:18] Julie Collishaw : Love the fish!
[09:18] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://pad.disroot.org/p/open2020-offers-wants
[09:19] Anthony Green : For me too much emphasis is place on the morality of co-operation at the expense of other considerations like its role in economic resilience
[09:19] John Waters : Jon Walker carried out a VSM analysis of Ostrom's observations, concluding that most of the systems she recorded were weak on System 4 ("Outside & Then" - modelling, forecasting, R&D) but generally strong elewhere.
[09:22] Mary Fee : Slide:  Connecting with other networks - Esther Foreman - The Social Change Agency - slide: We build people-powered movements that change the world.
[09:22] Laura James : https://opencollective.com/the-social-change-agency
[09:23] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Laura beat me to it!
[09:23] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : https://opencollective.com/the-social-change-agency
[09:26] Graham Brand : Llanidloes Covid-19 Mutual Aid Fund is in there.
[09:26] Julie Collishaw : I’m in West Wales- would be interested in the young trustees programme
[09:28] Graham Brand : The fiscal hosting tool works well.
[09:30] Julie Collishaw : Hello Llanidloes
[09:31] Graham Brand : Hi Julie - where in W Wales are you?
[09:32] Wael Alsaad : Esther, as UK is no more part of the EU, are you working with partners in the EU/Germany  who are supporting social startups?
[09:36] Billy Smith : Similar to the response to Hurricane Katrina.
[09:37] Grace : Given that the crisis with Covid is symptomatic of deeper problems in society, how difficult is it to shift those groups from immediate response to addressing the deeper problems?
[09:38] Billy Smith : We're at home, but unable to rest... :))
[09:40] Billy Smith : SME's employ 80% of the UK's workforce...
[09:42] DaYa : What is SME?
[09:42] Gary Alexander : "local mini economies" Yes, exactly the basis we need for the new economy, all working together with their neighbouring groups.
[09:42] mike hales : SME = small or medium-sized enterprise
[09:43] Les : are you not expanding the culture of food banks?
[09:44] Dave Darby : Gary - yes
[09:44] Gary Alexander : Yes! A peer network of COVID support groups! I've been trying to do that locally.
[09:45] Gary Alexander : What are you looking at? I only see the opening screen of Esther's slides.
[09:46] Gabriela Avram : I've been trying to get the audio stream for more than 30 min now. The most I could hear you was for 20 sec. Any tips? Am I the only one in trouble?
[09:46] Billy Smith : Dunbar's Number :D
[09:46] Billy Smith : Have to take it into account when you're setting up your organisations.
[09:46] Grace : Audio is working fine for me
[09:47] Mary Fee : A naff question: I became concerned about colleague who had not been responding to emails and discovered that he had been confined to a carehome and couldn't top up his mobile phone, which he told me was a Tesco phone.  Is it possible for a third party to top it up either online or over the counter?
[09:47] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : Gabrieal - hard refresh
[09:47] Billy Smith : @Gabriela: Try closing any other tabs with audio streams.
[09:47] Billy Smith : yes
[09:48] Billy Smith : just need the top-up card.
[09:48] Billy Smith : Contact the phone company to get an extra top-up card issued.
[09:48] Mary Fee : Yes, that's the problem - I haven't got it - he lives a long way away.
[09:49] Billy Smith : contact Tesco's phone service provider.
[09:49] Billy Smith : They're used to this process by now, due to covid
[09:50] Billy Smith : Tesco's customer support can contact the phone number to confirm permissions.
[09:50] Les : that was my point, actually :)
[09:50] Billy Smith : They won't say no to someone wanting to give them money... :D
[09:50] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : gott it, Les :)
[09:51] Mary Fee : Yes So much organisational going into the basics that the state should provide.
[09:52] Billy Smith : If you want the legal protections, then you have to follow the legal processes...
[09:53] Phil Pawlett Jackson : Hi Esther,

What are the main challenges of being a Fiscal Host - for another org thinking of helping in a similar way?

What other good examples are there orgs doing this role?

What help does The Social Change Agency need at the moment?
[09:53] Les : sorry, they would be considered an unincorporated association without a written constitution
[09:55] Les : in law, that is
[09:57] Les : generally it's not worth incorporating unless your turnover is more than £100K. The overheads are large
[09:58] Billy Smith : It depends upon how willing the people involved are to shoulder the legal responsibilities personally...
[09:58] Billy Smith : It helps if you are operating with a smaller number of people, ie. <150
[09:59] Billy Smith : +1 for the book-keeper
[09:59] Billy Smith : also transparency helps with trust
[09:59] Dave Ahlquist : There are many local community centres and organisations. Some who cross over with mutual aid group areas. Are they linking up - do they know about each other?
[10:00] Billy Smith : but also the skill-sharing means that it's not all on one person's shoulders, so that personn doesn't suffer from burn-out
[10:00] Les : thx Billy, good advice
[10:00] Phil Pawlett Jackson : Thanks
[10:01] Dave Ahlquist : I'll look at that. My org, Locality has 100 members in London
[10:01] Grace : I can invent more time.
[10:01] Dave Darby : Bless you Josef
[10:01] Grace : (Expertise in managing teams/delegation in ways that would actually free up some time)
[10:02] Wael Alsaad : making  and being change through economy
[10:02] Josef Davies-Coates : Thanks Dave
[10:05] Wael Alsaad : Do what is possible today and you will know which is the better option
[10:05] Sam Peters : solidarity economy?
[10:05] Grace : It seems to me that the ideas around mutual credit/new monetary systems are capable of addressing the issues "inside" the Donut Economics model (that is, social injustice) but that these new forms of money do not address the environmental issues such as renewable economy
[10:05] Sam Peters : god help us if solidarity get co-opted
[10:06] Dave Darby : https://pad.disroot.org/p/ontology-of-what
[10:06] Grace : Please send the Loomio link.
[10:06] Simon Grant : https://pad.disroot.org/p/conceptualising-our-future%2F
[10:06] Dave Darby : https://pad.disroot.org/p/open2020-offers-wants
[10:08] Grace : vocabulary / terminology / definitions
[10:09] Billy Smith : Operating from different maps of reality
[10:09] Billy Smith : Working together requires operating from a shared map
[10:10] Billy Smith : Map that i tend to work from, http://resiliencemaps.org/simple_critical_infrastructure_maps.png
[10:10] Diana Finch : One thing is certain - all meanings of all words change over time.  It will be impossible to 'fix' this vocabulary. One of the reasons is that others that don't share our values will (and already are) adopting the words and using them to describe themselves.  Another is that others that don't share our values will (and already are) turning our terminology into negative traits, by associating them with pejorative words.  I'm not saying we don't have a go at this exercise, but I am saying it will be ongoing.
[10:11] Wael Alsaad : @Sam Peter, there are capitalists making  wealth with "solidarity Economy"! Fairchain.org trying to certificate something  .. pls get in touch to define solidarity economy and building fairchain
[10:12] Billy Smith : what's the link for the breakout rooms?
[10:16] DaYa : I accidently got back in main room as it was prefilled in the drop down
[10:21] Gary Alexander : https://pad.disroot.org/p/conceptualising-our-future%2F
[10:30] Gary Alexander : By the way, I get error messages in the pad in Firefox, Chrome and Opera. Can't use it to add notes.
[10:46] Billy Smith : There were a few teething troubles accessing the document
[10:46] Wael Alsaad : make sure to keep further conversation over the telegram group 
https://t.me/joinchat/JvotB0kuxrjFgvYszbNvZw
[10:46] Billy Smith : too many people trying to edit at the same time
[10:46] Grace : So glad you said "plenary" because I never knew how to pronounce that
[10:46] Gary Alexander : just crashed out of the breakout group 6.
[10:46] Grace : but now I'm afraid as an American I need to say "plenary" differently than you do.
[10:47] Graham : @Grace: plen or pleeen - both are fine
[10:47] Mary Fee : What happened to our chat?  We got chucked out of the meeting room without warning.
[10:47] Billy Smith : Separate pads for each breakout session with the note-taker doing a copy&paste afterwards would work more effecctively
[10:47] Mark Simmonds : Scheduled end to breakout Gary - there was a message in corner of screen
[10:47] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : @mary there is a warning at the top of the screen
[10:47] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : which counts down
[10:47] Mary Fee : What happened to our chat?
[10:47] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : it's in the BBB blue!
[10:48] Les : we had to close our cameras so didn't see the warning
[10:48] Billy Smith : Possibly a 5 minute warning first, and then the minutes count-down...
[10:48] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : You can see the warning when cameras are on - it's ALWAYS at the top of the screen in breakout rooms
[10:48] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : plus you get a 1 minute warning too!
[10:49] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : but you have to look at it to know it's there ;)
[10:49] Billy Smith : Dave: having to simplify is a goos exercise as you have to have your idea's really clear in order to explain them simply.
[10:50] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : You can see the warning when cameras are on OR off!
[10:50] Billy Smith : switch the audio off and on to do that
[10:50] Mary Fee : Dave Darby says, our group were talking about "linguistic antibodies",  If you are going to avoid technical terms you need time to explain in everyday language.
[10:51] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : we can listen at several levels:
    1. What did they say? - which we're bad at
    2. What emotion or state they're in - we're good at this...
    3. People's intention or commitment - if u can listen at this level there's a lot more room for creation and collaboration together
[10:51] Les : thx Oli
[10:51] Billy Smith : also a beta-test note for BBB, too many people doing the mic test at the same time cause bandwidth/connection issues.
[10:52] Billy Smith : Also the difficulties caused by the lossy communication media...
[10:52] Cecilie Smith-Christensen : In the effort to support collaboration across diverse communities and practices, developing or agreeing on a vocabulary will require negotiation and possibly conflict management.
[10:53] Billy Smith : text-only for example loses 70% of the emotional content.
[10:54] Billy Smith : examples of Jargon being used as short-hand.

Good for people that understands it, but opaque to newbies.
[10:55] Phil Pawlett Jackson : I think this conversation concerns the interdependence of Ontology and Epistemology.

Somewhat as the church considers itself to be the living interpretation of a ‘Word’ - it should be similarly useful for a fiscal commons to be living epistemological keys by the way they conduct themselves within interpretative community - doing so conspicuously in public (coram publico). So, UBI or currencies etc - we are the living words.

There is then need for 
- Glossary/Concordance - a dynamic doctrinal statement which could be a wiki with a revision-permissioned list of word-meanings which sits at the core of the subscribing community.
- Rituals of meaning-making in these Symbolic Ontologies - so a eucharist for commons - to forge language and to sustain it’s perpetual reinterpretation, in public participatory displays of language-making and poetic consensus
[10:56] Martin Dow : @osb @Grace - thanks..  I find myself needing to "unpattern" so as to be able to "re-pattern" towards capacity to listen to these (what I think of as ..) "patterns" and act in turn.. 
I am not sure how else, personally, to allow for emergent scalable healthy patterns => "murmuration" type effects..
[10:57] John Waters : Have the individual rooms' side chats been saved?
[10:57] Mary Fee : Billy Smith said in the group they were talking about Letchworth Garden City being part of a new economy - but years later we're back to where we were before.
[10:58] Grace : @Martin, it starts with listening. We sometimes don't trust that the other person will say the things we "want' them to say, and then we spend time trying to make sure that they get us. When we focus on getting them, the converstation transforms
[10:58] Billy Smith : Discussion of what the terms "New Economy" actually meant.
[10:58] Martin Dow : @ Grace - so it seems! :thumbsup:
[10:58] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : John Waters
10:57 AM

Have the individual rooms' side chats been saved?


Probably not unless someone manual clicked save, or copied and pasted them...
[10:59] Billy Smith : Grace: Nice point :D
[10:59] Billy Smith : Somethng to set up for another time
[10:59] Mary Fee : That's why I was pissed off, because we were writing notes in the chat and didn't have time to save them.
[10:59] Grace : Don't worry about boring people-- when we listen again we might hear somethign new
[11:00] Mark Simmonds : Your river of language metaphor was good John
[11:01] Billy Smith : And harvest the energy that flows past... :D
[11:01] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : we could build a collective raft...
[11:01] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : tttie ourselves to others with agreed / shaed language
[11:01] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : float together
[11:02] Susannah Browning : So true!
[11:02] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : rather than tie our selves to the bank
[11:02] Mary Fee : John is talking about "river of language".  We can't stop other people misappropriating it. A generation later, people are using the word in a different way, Eg "refute", "ignorant", "ontology",  meanings change over time.  We can't stop Unilever saying they are "sustainable".
[11:03] Laura James : thanks for transcribing these key points @Mary, really appreciated!
[11:03] Mothiur Rahman : New Economy: I checked the Participatory Cities page and saw that Barking & Dagenham is settingi tself up as a "college on new learning", that is its incentive and in a way an extraction back to the old economy, unless the residents who provide the material/relationships that become the material for the courses have ownership/control over the College platform (which is very unlikely)
[11:03] Martin Dow : @John Waters - thankyou!
[11:04] Martin Dow : Tea?
[11:04] Les : @Monthiur    interesting!
[11:05] Mothiur Rahman : "WANT TO BUILD A PARTICIPATORY ECOSYSTEM IN YOUR BOROUGH OR CITY?WANT TO STUDY AND RESEARCH AT THE BARKING AND DAGENHAM CAMPUS?
The Cities Programme is a step by step programme designed to support cities develop and implement large initiatives like Every One Every Day in cities across the world."
[11:05] Laura James : The new work from Tessy and the Participatory Cities folks is very interesting too - https://medium.com/@TessyBritton/universal-basic-everything-f149afc4cef1
[11:06] Susannah Browning : ownership is critical! or this model could become a component by which the neoliberal extrastate takes a foothold
[11:06] Billy Smith : Slight side-comment to the above.

Barking  & Dagenham's funding was aimed at resident's only, so if you aren't livng in the borough, you can't use the Participatory City services.
[11:07] Les : if you want to study at the Campus, you have pay fees. Perhaps we could get them to accept mutual credit?
[11:07] Mothiur Rahman : it goes back to the question, who has ownership/control over the platform where value is created?  Not answering this question is how platform capitalism emerged out of the sharing economy.  With Participatory Cities one still needs to look at the underlying collaboration agreement with Dagenham to see what control/ownership they are taking over the material produced through the interactions with residents.
[11:08] Billy Smith : Sussanah: Yes! This! :D

Single-Point-of-Failure leads to systems being captured and eaten by predators.
[11:08] Les : what ownerhsip/control do we have here over 'our' material??
[11:08] Billy Smith : We have the leggal protections of copyright of what we say.
[11:09] Mark Simmonds : Beyond ownership (as we can cash in what we own) better to stress stewardship" in my opinion - we are the temporary owners of a long-lived commons. Good blog post by John McNamara looking at this tension in US worker co-ops: https://workersparadise.org/2020/03/20/are-we-not-owners-we-are-workers/
[11:09] Billy Smith : you can copyright the words that you use, but not the ideas that you are discussing
[11:10] Billy Smith : It's also used to set the microphone levels...
[11:12] Mothiur Rahman : If Open Coop had funding from X Co to create this platform and there was a collaboration agreement with XCo that said all material on the platform was in the ownership of XCo, and we had this conference which had a click button which said by clicking on this button you agree to the terms (and the terms said the platform is controlled through the collaboration agreement), then we lose our rights by joining the platform
[11:13] Billy Smith : This has taken place on a number of occasions.
[11:14] Billy Smith : It happened with Thingiverse
[11:14] Billy Smith : and the general Enclosure Acts...
[11:14] Dave Darby : Leon - where are you from / based?
[11:15] Leon : Birmingham, but been in Liverpool 18 years :)
[11:15] Ferananda : Hi everyone... great to see all the aliveness in the chat
[11:15] Mothiur Rahman : I use that as an example to think through the permutations that could exist with Participatory Cities and why its important to know the underlying agreements rather than just the publicly available reports - that is where it beomes clear who ultimatley owns what and whether one is participating in a platform that is nominally sharing only or actually sharing
[11:15] Billy Smith : Digital Autonomous Organisation
[11:16] Dave Darby : Leon Ah, I'm a Dudley boy. Recognised a familiar accent
[11:16] Billy Smith : ie. based mostly online
[11:16] Billy Smith : so international in scope
[11:16] Leon : Nice, Halesowen, not far :)
[11:16] Billy Smith : or planetary in scope :D
[11:16] Dave Darby : Leon - ha! thought it was Dudley!
[11:17] Renata Ballesteros : Beautiful, yes to this! "why its important to know the underlying agreements rather than just the publicly available reports - that is where it beomes clear who ultimatley owns what and whether one is participating in a platform"
[11:17] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : pad for notes: https://pad.disroot.org/p/Mutual_Credit_deep_dive
[11:17] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : please do help take notes!
[11:19] Billy Smith : Renata: the small print matters...
[11:19] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : (you can hide the presentation by minimising it with the small blue button at the top right of the presentation)
[11:20] Billy Smith : Also, the Thingiverse debacle was an example of a community that was being run on a corporate platform, which meant that it was vulnerable to changes in ownership.
[11:20] Oliver Sylvester-Bradley : (Matt - your mic is a bit loud)